Installing OS QTS 5.2.xx and applications on SSD M.2

English Firmware
1

Hello.
This is my first question. I am not an IT specialist. I am elderly and do not know much.
Please be lenient with my “stupid” questions.

I have a NAS TS-462, with OS QTS 5.2.4.3079, 16Gb RAM and RAID 5 (4Tb HDD x 4).
I configured everything myself.

Due to an unstable power grid, the UPS often turns off and starts the NAS.
I am not satisfied with the speed of loading and shutting down the NAS.
I had an idea to install OS QTS 5.2.xx and all programs on the M.2 SSD and thereby increase the speed of loading and shutting down the entire system. At the same time, all data should remain on the RAID HDD.

I assume that I can:

  1. Remove all applications from the RAID HDD and leave only the data;
  2. Remove all RAID HDD disks in order;
  3. Install 2 M.2 SSD disks;
  4. Reset NAS settings to factory defaults;
  5. Install OS QTS 5.2.xx and all applications on SSD M.2 from the very beginning;
  6. Return all RAID HDD disks in order.

I understand that this is not a clean installation, that boot sectors and other things will remain on the RAID HDD.

QUESTIONS:

  1. Will the NAS see the RAID HDD after this?
  2. Will there be data loss on the RAID HDD?
  3. Will installing the OS and applications on the SSD speed up the system boot and shutdown?

If I have an incorrect understanding of the sequence of actions, please tell me how to do it correctly.

2

The OS is always installed on all internal drives, so no way to control this
Even on all flash units, QTS starts slowly (I have a TBS-453DX all flash and it still boots in around 6 minutes)

3

Thanks for the answer.
Although it is strange to me why installing the OS on the SSD does not speed up the boot.
Still, I can try it in practice.
I am just wondering if the data on the RAID HDD will be saved and if the NAS will be able to work with it after installing on the SSD?

And another question.
Before TS-462, I had a QNAP HS-210.
It was not audible at all.
With TS-462, the HDD is constantly audible.
I read the questions in the thread M.2 NVME Caching on a TS-262 Nas
where you answered the user.
There, the user said that after installing the OS on the SSD, he got a very quiet NAS.
QUESTION: Can installing the OS on the SSD stop the HDD from constantly working?

4

The OS is in a spanning RAID1 across all internal disks, RAID1 speeds are bound to the slowest disk in the array.

If you add SSD’s you need to start from scratch as you have two system volumes now fighting. (so kill and restore from backups)

As the OS is on all disks, all disk would constantly spin as any OS read or write keeps all disks awake.

Just put the NAS out of earshot and it should be fine.

5

Maybe I’m asking the wrong questions because of my terrible English.

I realized that if I add M.2 SSDs and install OS on them, then the HDD array must be created from scratch.

If I install 2 M.2 disks and create a RAID1 array from them.
I install the OS and all applications on this array, then the loading/unloading speed will be equal to the reading/writing speed of the slowest SSD.

QUESTION:
If after this I install 4 HDD disks, create a RAID2 array from them, but do not install applications on it.
Will the OS also be written to RAID2 in this case and the speed will drop to the HDD speed?

6

Yes, the OS partitions will be replicated on ALL internal drives

7

Thank you. You have explained a lot to me and I am grateful to you for that.

8

Forgive rambling reply from 71 year old toothless RURAL Appalachian (empathize with your power grid issues).

When qnaps with pcie slots became available i went to M.2 raid 1 system pools(hero) or system volumes(QTS). No noticeable difference on startup or shutdown times, but once up, QTS/hero gui is more responsive. Allegedly 5.2 was supposed to improve boot/shutdown times (Q college U-tube 'Introducing QTS/QuTS 5.2 security and performance improvements") but I MAY have noticed infinitesimal improvement only on latest models running hero.

Primary reason for this configuration is to allow the ability to safely detach and physically remove DATA ONLY HDD raid pools. This eases offsite storage of data raid pool live images. Before any firmware upgrades I ‘safely detach’ data raid pools and unplug/remove their HDD’s so I can shakedown upgrade with spare disks before trusting it with my live data (by re-inserting those HDD’s and doing ‘scan and recover’).

Regarding OS/system volumes, I BELIEVE this is how it works and defer to one who actually KNOWS. The raid 1 mirrors splashed across 5 or 6 small partitions on all drives are created when a new disk is inserted or read/updated when a used-Q disk is re-inserted. I believe these have relatively static info about hardware model, pcie’s, drives, os version and release level and I suspect pool and raid config and would only be accessed at boot and updated when any of those things change. You cannot see these from the QTS/hero gui. When doing initialize from scratch, when you first can get into the gui, you will find no pools/volumes/shares show in Storage and Snapshots. If you try to go into QuLog or install an app QTS/hero will tell you no system volume (QTS) or pool(hero) is available and needs to be created. Be aware that the very first volume/pool you create will be tagged as “(System)” in the storage/snapshots display, and the only way that can be changed/moved is with re-init from scratch. The “(System)” volume/pool has QTS/hero logs, applications and other more DYNAMIC QTS/hero OS data.

That and use of HDD spindown settings is why user noticed NAS going quiet moving system to ssd’s.

Even though never supported, I had your original proposed upgrade plan (with slight mod) work for me numerous times when first implementing M.2 raid 1’s as “(System)” volumes. Variation from your plan (assuming your 4 HDD Raid 5 data volume is ONLY volume in pool and shows as “(System)”) is to create a second volume for data and shrink original '(System)" volume as you move data to new volume and resize new volume absorbing freed space until all the data you want to keep is on the new volume. That process would proceed the steps in your procedure. After step 6 in your procedure, if you’re in luck when you attempt to ‘scan and recover’) you will attach an additional pool with two volumes, neither flagged “(System”) and now you can delete the one that WAS flagged (System) prior to your re-init on M.2 ssd’s.

If your in luck, that may save you from having to recreate your 4hdd raid 5 and restore data to it.

Be aware that while that worked for me a half dozen times or more when first going to M.2 raid 1 pool '(System)" volumes, each 4.x QTS upgrade seemed to get more picky about what it was willing to successfully ‘scan and recover’. In fact a procedure that is actually supported, failed me on one of seven 5.2 upgrades. On my TS-EC1280U-RP, like all the others I safely detached data pool and unplugged its disks prior to the firmware upgrade, but when I went to ‘scan and recover’ after the firmware upgrade and testing, it failed to recover the data pool. I knew QNAP support might be able to help but estimated the 10-12 days to recreate and restore 70TB pool might be faster than support so I went to recreate pool on same hdd’s and it refused to use them until I reinitialized the system and data pool hdd’s from scratch.

Hope that helps…

9

Unplugging the HDD’s before a firmware update is not that great … as the OS (md9 and md13) is on the disks, you risk version missmatches. If the system volume is on the SSD’s and a firmware update does go sour, you still have to reinstall all the apps, even if you eject the SSD’s and boot only from the old HDD set.
Also ejected HDD sets as offsite storage and backups is not a good idea … external storage arrays or NAS should be used for that (again as the disks contain the OS)

10

I believe ‘safely detaching’ and ‘scan and recover’ are meant to work thru this. It’s worked MANY times for me since introduced, as i described with each firmware upgrade (to and from same NAS) as well as moving data pools from one nas to another. HOWEVER I would never try to boot with only these HDD data pools disks on the system. I boot with system initialized on the SSD’s (i.e. getting OS from there) before doing scan and recover of data pools. It’s ‘scan and recover’ that will update OS partitions on HDD’s to reflect latest running OS info if changed.

11

The old forums had plenty of topics where it did NOT work (with tears and everything … because the was no backups)… so I would not trust this process at all.

12

You are tempting me to verify with support that ‘Safely detatching’ and ‘scanning and recovering’ works as described and has for me MANY times, all but the one failure I detailed, and I bet support could have tweaked that one without restore if I was willing to wait. My last discussion with them on this, they said to look at the model migration matrix; if model migration is supported, moving a ‘safely detached’ data pool from one nas to be ‘scanned and recovered’ and attached to the different nas is supported as well.

Actual model migration of a pool flagged “(System)” (or QTS pool with volume flagged “(System)”) will prompt for firmware re-install if model and/or OS version differs from what target was initialized with.

Based on doubts you express, I’m tempted to confirm with support that your issues of concern are in fact addressed by proper use of ‘safely detachl’ and ‘scan and recover’.

While burned once with my 'DOCUMENTED" use of detach/upgrade/recover, I’ll stick with it as my whole reason for doing it was at least 5, probably more total reinitialze/restores that were forced by buggy firmware uprades and buggy upgrades to unwanted uninstallable applications in years prior to the availability of the ‘safely detach’/‘scan recover’ functionality.

13

Well of course QNAP will say it works every time … but well

External storage arrays and other NAS also have the advantage that the swap from QTS to QuTS (or any other OS) is not a hindrance, as you can just read the data on any OS. Oh and in case this is done lots’ you do not strain your internal bay connectors (that are not really meant for swapping disks very often)

14

Don’t let me give you the impression that I trust QNAP, just weighing which upgrade paths have been safer for me. I never had enough Q-trust to even look at any of their backup or snapshot functionality. I would never recommend them for production use in business or laboratory support.

Don’t understand what your saying there…

While never had any issue with HDD connector, on tower models and cheaper racks (1273AU, 1886XU) tray slides deffinitely aggree with you that their quality and difficulty of use deffinitely calls for way more caution and avoid disk removal/insertion (for the software upgrades I just pop tray handle to disconnect but don’t actually remove. Once a quarter I swap pool on 2480U with offsite image, but find tray slides way better built (actually on all using SP-X79U-TRAY model sleds).

15

If you have an array you disconnected from a QTS NAS, the NAS breaks and you buy a new QuTS NAS, you cannot use that array in there. Same goes if you replace the QNAP with any other manufacturer device.

If you had an external DAS (e.g. TR004 or a backup NAS with the data) you can restore the data from these anywhere you like.

16

Got it. Don’t get me started on Qnap’s crazy hero roll-out and even crazier hero model implementation. I bought QNAP support’s story on hero in video released pre-covid before hero release where user asked about what existing models would get hero support… their reply was probably not any of the smaller models, but XEON Q’s with 32GB RAM capability would be targeted first… …And they fell short on that for at least 3 of the 32GB XEON Q’s I positioned on based on that. I’ll be stuck with mixed Q-os environment indefinitely…pia… You’ll notice I’m running QTS on h1886XU – quick migration from a TS-1280U to new h1886XU after backing off hero to QTS so I could safely detach from 1280 and reattach to h1886XU so that one stays QTS until the 12x10TB’s need to be larger and I’ll hero it then…

Talking of DAS, yesterday I was looking at a QNAP 16bay on ebay 'supported on PC’s, Servers, and QNAP NAS’s but checking fine print for model ‘but not for Windows’…

17

Do QNAP make a 16 bay DAS? :astonished:

18

I only know of JBOD enclosures with more than 4 bays (USB/SAS/SATA)…

DAS (TR) I think are only 3 models
TR-002
TR-004
TR-004U

I wish they made more, but I guess there is no larger cheapo SATA bridge chips with builtin RAID capabilities.

1 Like
19

Pardon my das/jbod ignorance. The unit I mentioned was in fact JBOD TL-1600es and making me review difference tells me even it had windows support it’s not for me. Forgot JBOD meant HDD’s could only look like single drive. I thought with the included card it could look like 16 drives but if I understand it now that would have to be as 16 single hdd raid 0’s, not 16 legacy hdd’s.

Maybe they’re from before they were using the term DAS, but I have some IcyDock 4 bay enclosures that attach via USB or eSata cable that I guess would be considered DAS though I thought literature called it JBOD (the four drives are independently directly accessible from windows). The only unit I have that called itself DAS capable is TVS-873e, but while attachment was via USB-C cable, it was slower than the slowest old ATOM qnaps; looking closer, apparently it does a protocol conversion from USB to GBE using network to access data guaranteeing slower access than any network connection!!!

20

The USB Quick connect was a micro USB 3 cable (not USBC) …and yes it’s just a virtual network adapter, so it does not make it a DAS, just a NAS with a virtual network card.